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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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 Posted: 04-Sep-2006 10:31 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-03 21:14, chihawk wrote:
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On 2006-09-03 21:12, SaberDance wrote:
Three words: Brave Sir Robin.
Look it up in the custom mechs.
I've used rear weapons in cities, but normally only on heavies or assaults
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In an equitable battle I'll take any weapons you have in your rear arc vs everything I have into your back...
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How often, outside of the Solaris Arenas, do we fight equitable battles?
And recall, the BSR will take all you've got in the back, since that's where most of it's armor is.
The laser in the back of the Dragon, for example can become a lifesaver in close quarters. Crammed in a small part of a city, enemy mechs all around, the ability to discourage people from getting close behind you can be great.
The rear arc cover, plus an arm, can clear streets much faster than the arms and front alone. And it's really only in such tight quarters that it comes into play.
But as with many things in this game, it's a matter of what you have to use. If you draw a Dragon, you have a rear-facing laser. You might as well find a use for it.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Sep-2006 10:42 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-04 10:31, SaberDance wrote:
The rear arc cover, plus an arm, can clear streets much faster than the arms and front alone. And it's really only in such tight quarters that it comes into play.
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You either get the rear weapons OR the arm. Once you torso twist to get the arm into arc the target will then be out of your rear fire arc.
I've been playing this game for a very long time, and I killed a huge amount of mechs by shooting at their backs. I don't recall ever losing one by being hit by rear weapons fire.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Sep-2006 10:53 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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Rear mounted weapons are not intended to discourage other mechs. They are intended for vehicles and infantry in cities as those are more likely to pop-up behind you.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Sep-2006 14:09 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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Not many I'll grant you, but you can't tell me that 2 Streak 6's at your little Urbie or Hunchback isn't gonna hurt 
Now, I don't normally care for rear weapons. Just on a very few designs and in limited situations. Any time I let my enemy get behind me when I have a choice in the matter... well then I'm just stupid.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Sep-2006 14:13 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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Well Chi, I've been playing quite awhile now too... not as long as you, but meh
I've only ever killed a single mech with rear facing weapons. And it was kinda accident and luck. He wasn't exactly a new player... but not a vet either. He ran behind my Timberwolf WITHOUT finding out the variant... and it was one of the few times I played a D outside of a city. Well... he got both rear SSRM-6's into his Locust... and that was that.
Of course the ERPPC I fired into my forward arc just had to miss when needing a frelling 5... but thats the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Sep-2006 14:57 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-04 14:09, ralgith wrote:
Not many I'll grant you, but you can't tell me that 2 Streak 6's at your little Urbie or Hunchback isn't gonna hurt
Now, I don't normally care for rear weapons. Just on a very few designs and in limited situations. Any time I let my enemy get behind me when I have a choice in the matter... well then I'm just stupid.
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If both are the AC20 versions I'll take that chance...
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 04-Sep-2006 14:58 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-04 14:13, ralgith wrote:
Well Chi, I've been playing quite awhile now too... not as long as you, but meh
I've only ever killed a single mech with rear facing weapons. And it was kinda accident and luck. He wasn't exactly a new player... but not a vet either. He ran behind my Timberwolf WITHOUT finding out the variant... and it was one of the few times I played a D outside of a city. Well... he got both rear SSRM-6's into his Locust... and that was that.
Of course the ERPPC I fired into my forward arc just had to miss when needing a frelling 5... but thats the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.
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A Locust has no business being anywhere near a Timberwolf. You killed a very bad player.
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2006 01:47 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-04 14:58, chihawk wrote:
A Locust has no business being anywhere near a Timberwolf. You killed a very bad player.
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Dunno, Seraph is damn good and he has also (not the guy I killed  ) taken a Locust against a Timby... 2 of them actually.
But, meh, the guy I was facing was just trying to backbite thinking I'd attack the BattleMaster in front of me. But again, he didn't know which variant I was playing and that was stupid of him not to ask what his pilot could have plainly seen about the mech.
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Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2006 17:06 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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Words of wisdom when using a small lightly armored unit to attack a much larger and dangerous enemy. Make sure your target has something much worse than you to worry about while you are in range.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2006 17:15 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-05 17:06, Seraph wrote:
Words of wisdom when using a small lightly armored unit to attack a much larger and dangerous enemy. Make sure your target has something much worse than you to worry about while you are in range.
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If you are in range of a mech that can kill you in one salvo when you are minty-fresh, and that mech needs less than 10s to hit you, you have made a very big mistake. 
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2006 08:46 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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I concur. Once they changed the rules to allow rear firing and forward firing to be fired in the same round not as bad. Issue is if you use an arm weapon you have to remember the arc restrictions for secondary targets. And if everything is in the arms easier to blow them off.
1 Weapons is not enough really for anyone to care. 2 Weapons causes some concern. 3 Weapons will force Mechs to back off. This will probably not keep a Wraith off of you but a Locust does not like 3 MLs opening up on it. So the other objective is to make them move back so your shot is harder, and thus theirs, and end free physical attacks.
So this is where lance formations becomes more critical. In a duel then there is no reason for rear firing, you have one opponent and arm weapons. For a long range assault Mechs at the back of the formation, not bad to give him some option to cover the rear.
AWAD- Take that stupid Awesome with SRM and replace them with all rear firing MLs
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2006 14:08 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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I think there's about three conversations going on here:
Conversation 1: Are rear facing weapons a good idea, or should we just put the weapons in the arms.
Answer 1: I'm indifferent. I've only ever put rear facing weapons in one mech, and it was a gag. My take on rear facing weapons is they are only useful if you intend to put your back to an enemy,and who ever plans on that?
Conversation 2: If you have a rear facing weapon on your mech, when is it good?
Answer 2: Apparently the consensus is "in cities" And Chi, by my reading of the rule, there is enough overlap in the arm and rear fire arcs that if you angle your mech on a street corner, you can fire half your weapons down one street and the other half down the other. I think you can even do it on a straight street, but I've never tried. This might be only with certain mechs (flip arms) or this might be several rule changes ago. (My main books are old enough that they just have Autocannons. No numbers).
Conversation 3: What do you use a rear fire weapon on?
Answer 3: Whatever happens to be there. However, it is really just an annoyance to a mech. A vehicle or infantry that get back there are more likely to be afraid of it.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2006 14:24 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-06 14:08, SaberDance wrote:
IConversation 2: If you have a rear facing weapon on your mech, when is it good?
Answer 2: Apparently the consensus is "in cities" And Chi, by my reading of the rule, there is enough overlap in the arm and rear fire arcs that if you angle your mech on a street corner, you can fire half your weapons down one street and the other half down the other. I think you can even do it on a straight street, but I've never tried. This might be only with certain mechs (flip arms) or this might be several rule changes ago. (My main books are old enough that they just have Autocannons. No numbers).
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There is no overlap of the two arcs at all...I have every rule book and the side fire arcs and rear fire arcs have never had any overlap. Now obviously if your mech flips arms you can fire arm mounted and rear weapons into the same arc.
But your original post did say "an arm", so that would exclude the possibility of flipping in your example.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
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Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2006 16:16 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-06 14:24, chihawk wrote:
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On 2006-09-06 14:08, SaberDance wrote:
IConversation 2: If you have a rear facing weapon on your mech, when is it good?
Answer 2: Apparently the consensus is "in cities" And Chi, by my reading of the rule, there is enough overlap in the arm and rear fire arcs that if you angle your mech on a street corner, you can fire half your weapons down one street and the other half down the other. I think you can even do it on a straight street, but I've never tried. This might be only with certain mechs (flip arms) or this might be several rule changes ago. (My main books are old enough that they just have Autocannons. No numbers).
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There is no overlap of the two arcs at all...I have every rule book and the side fire arcs and rear fire arcs have never had any overlap. Now obviously if your mech flips arms you can fire arm mounted and rear weapons into the same arc.
But your original post did say "an arm", so that would exclude the possibility of flipping in your example.
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I'll say this and then concede the point because rule interpretation is not my thing:
Arms cover everthing except the back hex. Rear-mount weapons cover the back hex out in an arc, so there should be overlap of a 1 hex row diagonally starting 1 hex behind the mech. This is what you can line up on a street.
I'll now concede the point with "whatever, it isn't that important to the larger point which is: if you've got it, use it, particularly in cities."
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2006 16:58 Post subject: RE: Rear-facing weapons |
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On 2006-09-06 16:16, SaberDance wrote:
I'll say this and then concede the point because rule interpretation is not my thing:
Arms cover everthing except the back hex. Rear-mount weapons cover the back hex out in an arc, so there should be overlap of a 1 hex row diagonally starting 1 hex behind the mech. This is what you can line up on a street.
I'll now concede the point with "whatever, it isn't that important to the larger point which is: if you've got it, use it, particularly in cities."
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Just for future reference, you can't concede a point and then continue to defend yours.
It's not an interpretation of a rule, it's looking at the diagram in the book and clearly seeing that the side arc (which the arm covers) and the rear arc do not overlap at all. If fact, none of the arc overlap. Arms get to shoot into two different arcs, the front and the corresponding side arc.
As an aside, a mech that has a weapon that is in two locations (like an AC20 that's LA/LT) can only shoot in the front arc.
Take any map and put a mech down in hex 0808. Put a white die in hexes 0708, 0105, 0908, and 1505. Every hex within the lines made by those dice to the left and right of the mech is in the mech's front arc. Theoretically those diagonal hex lines formed by the dice stretch to infinity.
Now take a black die and place one in 0809, 0113, and 1513. Everything in the "V" is covered in your rear arc. Theoretically those diagonal hex lines formed by the dice stretch to infinity.
Every hex between the white dice and black dice, not inclusive of them, is the side arcs.
You'll notice there's no overlap.
This concludes today's demonstration, there will be a test on Friday. 
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