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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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 Posted: 09-Aug-2013 23:45 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Mu Ultralight Armoured Car
IS wheeled vehicle (Advanced/Fractional Accounting)
Total weight: 7 t
Internal Structure: 0.7 t
Engine: 25 standad fusion 0.75 t
MP: 6/9
Heat Sinks: 10 single 0 t
Control Equipment: 0.35 t
Turret: 0.3 t
Armour: 37 pts Heavy FF 1.9 t
Front: 10
R/L side: 6
Rear: 5
Turret: 10
Weapons and Equipment
Light PPC / turret / 3 t
BV2: 241
Cost: 228 908 C-bill
Based upon my older design submitted long ago to air-portable tank contest, I've decided that the time is to introduce a new thingie that will have a real ranged gun and not just an ER medium laser. Many compromises had to be done, but here it is, fully fitting within the cargo bay of the 3058 Karnov UR VTOL, surviving AC/10 hits and belching lightning (no thunder, sorry) and stuff 
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[Last edited by Sleeping Dragon on 10-Aug-2013 22:06; edited 1 time in total]
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Aug-2013 01:37 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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what would a tracked variant look like?
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 10-Aug-2013 03:13 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Too slow - wheels was the only way to keep the engine in 0.5 ton range without going XL because of suspension factor. Merkagavin was tracked, but I made it without fractional accounting, which I despise. Here is a redo of the tank with more optimalised tonnage allocation and a small pulse laser instead of the standard model (you could strengthen the armour by another half ton as well, but anti-personnel weapon is also useful).
Merkagavin II Ultralight Tank
IS tracked vehicle (Advanced/Fractional Accounting)
Total weight: 7 t
Internal Structure: 0.7 t
Engine: 45 standad fusion 1.5 t
MP: 6/9 Heat Sinks: 10 single 0 t
Control Equipment: 0.35 t
Turret: 0.2 t
Armour: 44 pts Heavy FF 2.25 t
Front: 15
R/L side: 7
Rear: 5
Turret: 10
Weapons and Equipment
ER laser (M) / turret / 1 t
Pulse laser (S) / turret / 1 t
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1447
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 10-Aug-2013 04:55 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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I like such small buggers and especially the LPPC so this is something to think about for me despite using fractional accounting that i also despise 
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 10-Aug-2013 06:49 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Unfortunately there is no good way to fit LPPC into something small enough to fit in the Karnov. Another challenge would be lvl1 tech and old Karnov (which has only 6 ton bay).
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
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Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1447
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 06:04 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Maybe we should upgrade the Karnov instead 
But sure: without fractional accounting the challenge could not be met with something carrying a 3ton-weapon.
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 06:14 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Heh, there are quite a few VTOLs, super heavy VTOLs and other such stuff we could use, including Super Karnov, but I wanted something as ubiquitous as that transport helicopter.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 10:18 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Given it's weight I don't see this being an issue for a sling load type of carry by just about any cargo VTOL military or civilian.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 10:55 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Indeed, but for this type of transport I could have made a 10 ton vehicle along the lines of the light vees in 3145 TROs.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 11:18 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Point is you may not need a VTOL for internal transport if the sling load works better. Look at VTOLs like the HIP and Chinook, they can hold a single jeep like vehicle. That should give you some idea of what is needed weight wise on the VTOL side.
Sling load allows the VTOL to pick up items and not worry about landing, since they can cut the load as it is called and be out of there as fast tas their engines can move them.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 16:33 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Karagin wrote: | Point is you may not need a VTOL for internal transport if the sling load works better. Look at VTOLs like the HIP and Chinook, they can hold a single jeep like vehicle. That should give you some idea of what is needed weight wise on the VTOL side.
Sling load allows the VTOL to pick up items and not worry about landing, since they can cut the load as it is called and be out of there as fast tas their engines can move them. |
You'd need a 15t or 20t VTOL with a Lift Hoist or a 10t with 2 Lift Hoists to due it within the rules.
| wrote: | | TM p.245: Combat and Support Vehicles may mount up to 4 (standard) lift hoists per unit. |
Each weights 3t and takes 3 crits M or 1 slot CV/SV.
| wrote: | | TWp.137: Each lift hoist allows a unit to lift cargo equal to half its tonnage (or 200, whichever is lower). These limits can be combined—for lift cargo weighing up to 30 tons. |
If you do two hoists on a 10t chassis, you could sling your tank at 7 speed before minuses. I think optimal would be a 25 or 30t VTOL with four hoists which minimal armor could get 9 speed and carry up to 50 or 60 tons.
| wrote: | | TWp.261: Unless it mounts a lift hoist (see p. 136) or is a ’Mech carrying the cargo in its hands (see ’Mech Lifting Capabilities, below), a unit can only load or unload cargo during a scenario if friendly infantry is present in the same hex. |
| wrote: | | TWp.137: If a unit simply carries cargo in the lift hoists, as opposed to loading or unloading it into cargo bays, the unit can lift or set down its cargo in a single turn, though all the rules for cargo carriers still apply (see p. 261). |
You'd need to use hoists or need to deliver into a prepared LZ. Also, without the hoist drop times vary.
| wrote: | | TWp.137: Units suffer no movement penalty when carrying cargo up to half their tonnage. When carrying cargo greater than half its tonnage, reduce the unit’s Walking/Cruising MP by 1. A ’Mech mounting TSM can lift double the usual cargo (cargo equal to its full tonnage for each lift hoist mounted). However, when carrying cargo that weighs more than the ´Mech’s tonnage, reduce the ’Mech’s Walking MP by 2. |
| wrote: | | TWp.261: Unlike cargo in a dedicated cargo bay, a unit carrying external cargo must modify its movement. Cargo weighing up to a quarter of the carrying unit’s weight subtracts 3 from—or cuts in half, rounding down—the carrier’s Walking/Cruising MP, whichever is less. A unit carrying a load weighing more than a quarter of its own tonnage may only move at half its Walking/Cruising MP (round down). |
I'd say its safe to assume vehicles also suffer -2 mp at 100% and up, and what a significant difference in speed drop.
I worked up this example:
| Code: | Chinook CH-47
Mass: 25 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: VTOL OmniVehicle
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-E-E
Production Year: 0
Cost: 470,747 C-Bills
Battle Value: 114
Power Plant: 85 I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 97.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 151.2 km/h
Armor: Standard Armor
Armament:
12.0 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer:
Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:
================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 15 points 2.50
Engine: I.C.E. Engine 85 5.00
Cruise MP: 9
Flank MP: 14
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 0 0.00
Control Equipment: 1.50
Lift Equipment: 2.50
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 24 1.50
Armor
Factor
Front 7
Left/Right 5/5
Rear 5
Rotor 2
================================================================================
Loadout Name: A Cost: 883,247
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-E-E BV2: 114
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equipment Location Heat Spaces Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infantry Bay (12.0 tons) BD 0 1 12.00
================================================================================
Loadout Name: B Cost: 699,913
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-E-E BV2: 114
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equipment Location Heat Spaces Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Lift Hoists BD 0 2 6.00
2 Cargo, Standard (3.0 tons)s BD 0 2 6.00
BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 1 Points: 1
9 0 0 0 0 1 0 Structure: 1
Special Abilities: OMNI, ENE, EE |
This could sling/hoist a 50t tank and still fly at 7 hexes cruise. Also, SAW (Solaris Armor Werks) incorrectly limits Hoists to 2 per CV/SV, so the 6t cargo are two extra hoists for 4 total. Though, you could make a variant that has 1 hoist and 8t cargo and 1 mg w/ 0.5t ammo; it could sling 12.5 tons (your tank), carry 2 BA squads, and possess minimal suppressive fire.
I wonder if you could sling more than 1 unit at a time? I'd rule no, but its a question.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 16:51 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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I see you are not using an official design program are you sure the numbers are right?
And the rules for a lot of things are badly written and in the rush to balance things they fail to take in to account simple things, the idea of sling loading, is a cable is attached to the VTOL which uses the lift of the craft to pick up the object, be it a vehicle like a truck or jeep or artillery piece or small APC and then carry it to where ever it is going. we used this a lot in Afghanistan. Also you can put supplies etc..on large metal pallets that are then put in a net with a rounded eye cable that is then hooked to a cable from the VTOL, speed is not a major issue and the VTOL can still do it's job.
And the fact that we have TWO rule systems for vehicles further messes things up IMVHO. One lift hook is all you need or should at any rate.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 17:23 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Karagin wrote: | | Sling load allows the VTOL to pick up items and not worry about landing, since they can cut the load as it is called and be out of there as fast tas their engines can move them. |
By the RAW, the VTOL with a sling'ed unit would still need to land to unload but would have full movement by the next movement phase. So a combat drop, touch and go.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 17:32 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Karagin wrote: | | I see you are not using an official design program are you sure the numbers are right? |
They are accurate enough.
| wrote: | | And the rules for a lot of things are badly written and in the rush to balance things they fail to take in to account simple things, the idea of sling loading, is a cable is attached to the VTOL which uses the lift of the craft to pick up the object, be it a vehicle like a truck or jeep or artillery piece or small APC and then carry it to where ever it is going. we used this a lot in Afghanistan. Also you can put supplies etc..on large metal pallets that are then put in a net with a rounded eye cable that is then hooked to a cable from the VTOL, speed is not a major issue and the VTOL can still do it's job. |
Their external cargo rules reflect this type of cargo movement.
| wrote: | | And the fact that we have TWO rule systems for vehicles further messes things up IMVHO. One lift hook is all you need or should at any rate. |
The way I see it is that each hoist is a single cable and wench; I imagine each additional cable improves the lift ability of the unit by improving lift strength (more cables) and stabilizing the load with more attachment points. So yes, a single hoist might be able to handle 100% lift but doing so risks the carrying unit as the load starts pulling them around as it shifts.
Its how I imagined the rules.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 17:56 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Vagabond wrote: | | Karagin wrote: | | Sling load allows the VTOL to pick up items and not worry about landing, since they can cut the load as it is called and be out of there as fast tas their engines can move them. |
By the RAW, the VTOL with a sling'ed unit would still need to land to unload but would have full movement by the next movement phase. So a combat drop, touch and go. |
WHY in the 9 levels of hell would it need to land to drop a sling load? That makes NO sense what so ever, kind of like the 1 ton pintel mount that they came up with. Which book is RAW?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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