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Kalo Osis
Clan Ice Hellions
Star Colonel
Joined: 07-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 446
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 Posted: 11-Aug-2006 20:23 Post subject: Space Program Moves Forward |
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Ahhh the space program as we know it sucks up as much as twenty billion tax payer's money every year to fund their advances into the wild black yonder of space. But one questions has always plagued me: When will we posses the technology to sustain life on other planets and explore space past the moon with manned missions. Well, it seems it is already here. I was loking up about the Space Program and it seems there are plans in the making of building an outpost on the surface of the moon...and it will happen in 2018. If that isn't enough, the Space Shuttle as we know it is being retired in 2010 and is to be replaced by the advanced Crew Exploration Vessel, which is capable of docking with the International Space Station (To be finished by 2010) and leaving Earth's orbit to explore the Inner Solar System and perhaps beyond if it can get past the asteroid belt. How long before we have outposts on other planets? It remains to be seen, but I think it will not be long. I mean, human kind has gone from gliders to Space Shuttles in a mere one hundred years. I wouldjust like to hear your thoughts on the subject.
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"I prefer to fight for a meaningful purpose, rather than to provide a spectacle for the ignorant masses."
-Kalo on the Solaris 7 Battlemech Arenas
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Talen
Capellan Confederation
Sang-shao
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1269
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12-Aug-2006 02:19 Post subject: RE: Space Program Moves Forward |
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Seriously though, Interplanetary missions are a huge drain on money and resources, ATM. Earth to Moon and Earth to Near-Earth Asteroids is whats good for right now.
Once we get a foothold at the space station, and the moon, then we can think about outer and inner planets more. Having a launch station on the moon, even one of them mass-driver things, is a much better launching platform.
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"Historians exercise great power and some of them know it. They recreate the past, changing it to fit their own interpretations. Thus, they change the future as well." - Leto II
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12-Aug-2006 08:29 Post subject: RE: Space Program Moves Forward |
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Look at the dates on this stuff. I think the only limiting factor here is the radiation given off by the sun. You need an atmospere and magnetic field to deal with it. Otherwise something resembling a fall out shelter. This stuff is plans made back in the 70s and 80s.
http://www.nas.nasa.gov/About/Education/SpaceSettlement/spaceres/toc.html
AND
www.nas.nasa.gov/About/Education/SpaceSettlement/
[ This Message was edited by: Rarich on 2006-08-12 08:31 ]
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Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 12-Aug-2006 12:10 Post subject: RE: Space Program Moves Forward |
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I'll believe it when I see it.
NASA is one of the least efficient government agencies around now. Some of their private contractors are pretty good (JPL, for example), but NASA couldn't spend its way to the moon if it had the Saturn V rocket on the launch pad.
For example, NASA is married to the space shuttle, one of the worst designed space craft from a technical and economic view (on numerous counts, the old Apollo capsuls are better) because they've got them already. The shuttle can't do most of the things it was designed to do (like reach high orbit) and it costs more money to maintain the shuttles than it costs to launch them. The only way the shuttles could break even was if we launched one about every six weeks.
People have been pointing this out for at least 20 years, but NASA keeps using the shuttles and refuses to look into new ideas.
We had to lose two of them before NASA even looked into new ideas, and we had to almost lose a third before they adopted an idea (which had been pitched to them over a decade ago).
The ISS is more of the same. In terms of actual space exploration, the ISS doesn't do much, but it's already there, everyone else is spending money on it, and it justifies NASA continueing to shell out money on the shuttle. Course, the shuttle hasn't been doing much lately because the fleet is still mostly grounded.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 12-Aug-2006 18:56 Post subject: RE: Space Program Moves Forward |
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Remember NASA is a government agency. Glaciers move faster...
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 15-Aug-2006 12:49 Post subject: RE: Space Program Moves Forward |
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/space/08/14/space.tapes.reut/index.html
NASA at work.
Next they'll lose the flag on the moon...
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2006 05:54 Post subject: RE: Space Program Moves Forward |
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Keep in mind that, yes, NASA is a government agency. As such, they are very hesitant to change what works -right now-. Heck, it was only a few years ago that they upgraded the orbiters to the all-powerful 386 processors. Mainly because the 386's, for all their soul-sucking slowness, is a robust unit, and is able to deal with the crap that the orbiter has to go through with launches, reentry and such.
One of the costlier parts of sending a manned ship, or any ship, to a destination like Mars, is the fuel. For a high-power, rapid transit trajectory, you need an unGodly amount of fuel. Consider this. If you took a ship the size of the shuttle (with SRBs and main fuel tank) and converted the whole thing to a flying gas can, your payload would be about as big as a ham sandwich. With a low-power, orbital transit trajectory, you could probably send something bigger, say a Volkswagon bus. (just picking something, no need to start firing equasions at me).
The ISS is in a good postion to assist in any manned exploration of Mars and/or the Moon. Mainly because it can/could serve as the basis of an orbital shipyard. If you build a ship purely in micro gravity, and see to it that the vessel never has to enter an atmosphere, you can build it big enough to carry enough fuel AND a sizable payload.
On the matter of refuling. One suggestion is to send a 'distillery' platform to Mars. The exact chemistry and physics behind the process escape me at the moment, but it is possible to refine a usable rocet fule from the Martian soil and air. In this way, the first teams to land on mars would have a gas station ready to go by the time they arrive. (though they would still probably bitch about fuel being three bucks a gallon.)
The technology IS available. The cost is very prohibitive. I think that the main reason we dont have a moon base, or that we havent sent anyone to Mars and back for some sightseeing, is that nobody has challanged the american people to do it. Kennedy was on to something when he proposed the US put a man on the moon before the decade was out. One, it gave the people something to aspire for. Two, it gave the bureaucracy something to do. Anyone working for or with the gov'mint knows that bureaucracys are good at two things, covering their butts, and doing what needs to be done (time not withstanding).
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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2006 05:09 Post subject: A plan and requirements, that's all |
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I was just giving a starting point. A plan, requirements and obstacles.
I thogoughly agree that someone other than the government can do it better. There's a story about volunteers having to go thru saftey, sensitivity, and hazards courses before FEMA would let them help in New Orleans. If true it proves the point that govt. is so focused on following proceedures and is so risk adverse that most of the time they waste serious money.
I believe we must get into space, it is a matter of survival. The recent realizations about Yellowstone, Asteroids, and The Wave point out our vulnerability. Heck we may turn the asteroid that would have destroyed us into some serious raw material to help us. Today a huge chunk of our technology came out of the space program, everything from certain types of plastic, Ferroceramics, Microchips, and better communications. Solarcells, the ultimate green power were driven by the need for power in space, among other things. There are materials that are easier to make in space, and some that require low gravity, they can also improve things.
We are at the equivalent of the Log Canoe in terms of our spacecraft technology. I am actually surprised that we have not had more "canoes turn over" than we have had. We are on the edge of discovering a new environment. The only bar to space right now is who is willing to run serious risk, and accept loosing a few people in the process of learning the lessons that need lerned. In individual terms, you hit your thumb once in a while learning to hammer, the same process for humanity will take place. The scale up means individuals will pay a price, just like losing some thumbcells.
Callous? no, I will feel with those families, but I will know those individuals chose to accept a risk to do what they liked/loved. I will just try and make sure the deaths weren't in vain, in my own small way.
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Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2006 12:47 Post subject: RE: A plan and requirements, that's all |
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Problems moving into space are cost and benefits.
Short form, from the view of potential financiers, it costs more to go into space than going into space pays.
So, the people who fund space flight are enthusiasts, who often have more enthusiasm than money. The guys who built a space plane out in California are the exception, but they are a long way from building anything like the infastructure required to explore space.
I want to see space explored too. I want my mars colonies, I want colonies on Europa. I want space stations.
But I have yet to hear a good reason to fund any of these other than coolness factor.
Heck, at current birth rates, overpopulation isn't even a good reason anymore. (declining populations in the West are not being made up, despite the high birthrates, in the east.)
We need a George Washington Carver to figure out hundreds of uses for moon-rock or martian-rock before anyone will fund the trip.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2006 16:09 Post subject: RE: A plan and requirements, that's all |
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Like I said, Yellowstone, an Asteroid, or global warming could force civilization to start over. Get enough space going to be self sustaining, and civilization will survive and save humanity from a serious threat of extinction.
_________________
Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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