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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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 Posted: 11-Aug-2013 18:00 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Vagabond wrote: |
They are accurate enough.
Their external cargo rules reflect this type of cargo movement.
The way I see it is that each hoist is a single cable and wench; I imagine each additional cable improves the lift ability of the unit by improving lift strength (more cables) and stabilizing the load with more attachment points. So yes, a single hoist might be able to handle 100% lift but doing so risks the carrying unit as the load starts pulling them around as it shifts.
Its how I imagined the rules. |
I guess if you say they are right, I stick with HMVee since it's the official program myself.
IF the rules reflected HOW a sling load worked it would not have the VTOL landing or doing anything silly other then moving to spot B, hovering to drop the load and gone once done. No loss of speed, now it might have issues with evasive actions but that could be a simple hey the attacking units gets bonus to hit or something, not a loss in speed. And if a load shifts then someone didn't do their job on the ground and the crew chief will have their ass once they get back to base. Do a Google on Sling Load you will find it is very simple and doesn't require much to make it work.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 22:19 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Karagin wrote: | | WHY in the 9 levels of hell would it need to land to drop a sling load? That makes NO sense what so ever, kind of like the 1 ton pintel mount that they came up with. Which book is RAW? |
RAW = Rules as Written. A phrase used to indicated by the strict reading of the rules vs a intent reading of the rules.
| wrote: | | I guess if you say they are right, I stick with HMVee since it's the official program myself. |
HMVee is badly, badly out of date. As such, SSW or Solaris Skunk Werks was created by fans using open source java. SSW while unoffical is used by all segments of the BT population (Forumers, on CBT, in Megamek, at conventions). It has the occasional bug just like HMPro but they get addressed quickly. With most of the technical items input into SSW, the programers have started working on SAW or Armor Werks for Vehicles. Its more buggy but is still based on the same stuff as SSW. It'll get you in the ball park for most items.
| wrote: | | IF the rules reflected HOW a sling load worked it would not have the VTOL landing or doing anything silly other then moving to spot B, hovering to drop the load and gone once done. No loss of speed, now it might have issues with evasive actions but that could be a simple hey the attacking units gets bonus to hit or something, not a loss in speed. And if a load shifts then someone didn't do their job on the ground and the crew chief will have their ass once they get back to base. Do a Google on Sling Load you will find it is very simple and doesn't require much to make it work. |
I have seen sling work and I know a VTOL needs to spend at least a few seconds going slow as it needs to drop the load from only a few feet or risk damaging it. The issue really is that the rules were designed for ground vehicles not VTOLs using slings.
I'd say its ok to rule that a VTOL needs to be at 1 level above the underlying terrain in order to safely unload the cargo (as if it was a ground unit). However, I'd also require that VTOL to be at least 2 elevations above underlying terrain or risk damaging the slung cargo.
I'd say for simplicity they simply used the same rules for ground and VTOL. The VTOL in order to drop a load with a hoist would need to move to target hex (assume flying 1 level above ground) spend 1 mp to descend to level 0, spend 1 mp to drop the load. Next turn it spends 1 mp to raise to level 1 and flies off.
In 20 secs it has flown in and killed speed, placed the cargo on the ground, cut the cables, and flown off.... seems pretty close to real life to me.
And the reverse is even better than real life, a hoist equipped VTOL could can in 20 secs fly in and kill speed, place the cables, hoist the cargo from the ground, and fly off... without a prepackaged load.
If it suits your imagination, imagine that the 1 mp to descend to level 0 is the pilot killing speed and carefully placing the cargo near the ground, the 1 mp for unloading is the pilot going into a near hover and safely cutting the cables, and the 1 mp to raise to level 1 is them coming out of the hover. They never actually land but mechanically its the same as if they had.
As for load shifting, I am indicating the cargo beginning to dangerously sway underneath the VTOL. Most sling loads i have seen all attach to a single cable that attaches to the underside of the VTOL at single point or multiple cables all coming together at a single point on the body. Either way, the load in the sling spins and sways underneath the craft. I've only seen a few pictures of a load attaching at multiple points under a VTOL. Even then it sways. The heavier the load in comparison to the VTOL, the more dangerous this swaying is to the VTOL. VTOLs have crashed because of this swaying. Thus my reasoning above, more reinforced connection points (hoists) offers greater stability and thus a safer ability to lift a load in comparison to its mass.
BTW a VTOL not constructed to sling (hoist) can still sling but the connections are less secure and the VTOL less designed to perform this function:
| wrote: | TW p.261: To load or unload cargo, a unit must end its Movement Phase in the same hex as the cargo (or adjacent hex if Large Support Vehicle). It may make no weapon or physical attacks for that turn and three subsequent turns (meaning it cannot expend any MP in those three subsequent turns) for each 20 tons of cargo (or fractions thereof). A friendly infantry unit must be present in the same hex for the duration of loading. If the infantry unit is eliminated or moves out of the hex, the clock stops for loading or unloading. If another friendly infantry unit ends the Movement Phase in the same hex as the unit loading or unloading cargo, the clock starts once again, for as long it takes to load each 20 tons of cargo (or fractions thereof). The carrying unit cannot expend any MP during this time, or the cargo is considered to not be loaded and the clock stops.
The controlling player of a unit unloading cargo announces that he is beginning to unload at the end of any Movement Phase. The cargo is considered to be in the same hex as the unloading unit during the End Phase of the final turn in the unloading process.
The following conditions cut down on the number of turns it takes to load and unload cargo (to a minimum of 1 turn).
These conditions are cumulative:
• Subtract 1 turn if two friendly conventional infantry units occupy the same hex
• Subtract 1 turn for every friendly battle armor unit that occupies the same hex.
• Subtract 1 turn if any of the battle armor units mount cargo lifter manipulators (see p. 229).
• Subtract 1 turn if the cargo is being loaded or unloaded into or from a dedicated cargo bay (as opposed to strapped or slung on as unprotected cargo). |
I compare this type of sling to slings that are hard bolted to the VTOL rather than connected to cargo carrying points. These VTOLs uses a cargo hook (i believe that is the term) that lacks a release mechanism. So it takes long to connect and disconnect them. Also 30 secs for 20 tons of cargo is pretty quick IMHO.
Also since this function is less constructed into the design it is more limited in its capabilities:
| wrote: | | TW p.261: In addition to the cargo a unit can carry in a dedicated cargo bay, a ’Mech or vehicle may also carry unprotected cargo (in slings, strapped to the top, in lightweight containers and so on) equal to its own tonnage. |
| wrote: | | TW p.261: Unlike cargo in a dedicated cargo bay, a unit carrying external cargo must modify its movement. Cargo weighing up to a quarter of the carrying unit’s weight subtracts 3 from—or cuts in half, rounding down—the carrier’s Walking/Cruising MP, whichever is less. A unit carrying a load weighing more than a quarter of its own tonnage may only move at half its Walking/Cruising MP (round down). |
I personally think it is not much to ask that a Transport VTOL being designed to carry sling cargo be required to spend 3 tons for the ability to carry up to half its weight quickly. A 20 ton VTOL can dedicate 6 tons and carry 20 tons of sling cargo at -1 mp cruise and the ability to pick-up/drop in 10 secs unaided or it can forgo this equipment at carry 20 tons at half cruise and need 30 secs to pick-up/drop using a ground crew.
BTW... in these references these times seem right:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCXwTxPelMo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dI92lifyQ
Sway issues:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y8eBsrOS44
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 22:57 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Vagabond wrote: |
HMVee is badly, badly out of date. As such, SSW or Solaris Skunk Werks was created by fans using open source java. SSW while unoffical is used by all segments of the BT population (Forumers, on CBT, in Megamek, at conventions). It has the occasional bug just like HMPro but they get addressed quickly. With most of the technical items input into SSW, the programers have started working on SAW or Armor Werks for Vehicles. Its more buggy but is still based on the same stuff as SSW. It'll get you in the ball park for most items.
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No actually its not out of date, you can add in the weapons and a lot of the other things via using the custom weapons editor. And since Rick has put a lot of time into the HM series I think supporting him would be the best for all of us. And given how much easier HM series is to use vs SSW I will stick with HMPro.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 23:02 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Having done sling load in Afghanistan and seeing how they work from being on the ground and in the bird to retrieve the "eye hook" cables and other things once the load is taken to the area it needs to go, I don't buy into a 3 ton winch or anything else like that.
The crew as the ability to cut the load if something goes wrong and they will NOT pick it up if things are not to their liking. Seen that way to many time to know that a pissed off crew chief is not a good way to start a day.
The bird doesn't really slow down as much as it hovers, the time it takes to do all that is not much and yes it doesn't seem like a lot but that is what a turn and half in BT for the event to happen?
Most do a single cable because that is the easiest and best way to go. If they are using dual cables then if something goes wrong the bird is mostly like to go down with the load. Single cable means they can cut it and not worry about it pulling the bird down. I have been to the US Army Sling Load Course, they do a good job of beating the info in your head.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 23:09 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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www.chinook-helicopter.com/sling_loads/UH-60_Sling_Load_a.jpg
In the picture you see three cables coming up to a hook. That hook is attached to another cable, which can be cut if the Blawkhawk starts to be come lose. So the issue here is not about having dual hooks hold the load but about safety of the helicopter carrying the load.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 23:16 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Karagin wrote: | | No actually its not out of date, you can add in the weapons and a lot of the other things via using the custom weapons editor. And since Rick has put a lot of time into the HM series I think supporting him would be the best for all of us. And given how much easier HM series is to use vs SSW I will stick with HMPro. |
It lacks ALL of the structural, engine, armor, and modifications available in TechManual.
And I own EVERY single HM product. I have and will support HM2 when it releases. The problem is that we are now several years into TW and TM and we have only just recently gotten a weapons update for HM. SSW was created because the community got tired of waiting for Rick to produce HM2. It is past the point now in my opinion for us to have seen HM2. It needs to be released.
Well ease of use is an opinion but I am curious how you feel SSW is harder to use? My experience is that they are fairly identical in operation and design.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 23:19 Post subject: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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I don't like their interface and I don't like how they slapped Rick in the face over all of this. But that is my opinion and we are already floating way off topic here.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 11-Aug-2013 23:49 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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| Karagin wrote: | | Having done sling load in Afghanistan and seeing how they work from being on the ground and in the bird to retrieve the "eye hook" cables and other things once the load is taken to the area it needs to go, I don't buy into a 3 ton winch or anything else like that. |
And in the rules as I stated, a VTOL can sling up to its weight for half speed and the need for a ground crew to un/load over at least 30 secs. The hoist allows you to do all this at -1 mp and without a ground crew in 10 secs; the hoist is an advancement on the basic sling technology.
| wrote: | | The crew as the ability to cut the load if something goes wrong and they will NOT pick it up if things are not to their liking. Seen that way to many time to know that a pissed off crew chief is not a good way to start a day. |
One of my videos showed a crew cutting the cargo. Which btw is valid in the rules:
| wrote: | | TW p.261: A hauling unit may drop its cargo (as opposed to unloading, as described above) during its Movement Phase by expending 1 MP and declaring that it is dumping all its cargo. |
However, it will destroy the cargo unless a roll of 6 on a 1d6 is made. I'd rule for units being dropped they suffer falling damage, maybe use the failed Assault Drop rules.
| wrote: | | The bird doesn't really slow down as much as it hovers, the time it takes to do all that is not much and yes it doesn't seem like a lot but that is what a turn and half in BT for the event to happen? |
In every video that I watched, a pre-cabled cargo took at least 30 secs. The video I linked shows 3 different lifts that each take more than 30 secs. A VTOL in BT comes to a full stop (unless optional rules are used) within 10 secs even from full flank.
ex. turn 1: using the example vehicle i posted minus hoists you could flank 13 hexes then spend 1 mp to descend to level 0 (Land). turn 2-4: A non-hoist VTOL would then hover for 30 secs. turn 5: it spends 1 mp to raise to level 1 and then flank 5 hexes (half speed, round down).
That looks exactly like all of the vids I have watched. The only exception being that the drop off shouldn't need a ground crew but having one would decrease off-load time (securing the load).
| wrote: | | Most do a single cable because that is the easiest and best way to go. If they are using dual cables then if something goes wrong the bird is mostly like to go down with the load. Single cable means they can cut it and not worry about it pulling the bird down. I have been to the US Army Sling Load Course, they do a good job of beating the info in your head. |
According to what I saw and read, a single point is used for most pallet type loads while a multi-point (or suspension load) is used for heavy or unwieldy loads (vehicles, artillery, and aircraft).
Again, some of the vids that I watched:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCXwTxPelMo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5dI92lifyQ
Sway issues:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y8eBsrOS44
As I said above, the rules allow sling loads up to the VTOLs weight but require a ground crew and 30 secs of hover. The hoist is a advancement in technology that allows for automated sling loading requiring no ground crew and no hover time but at only 50% the vehicles mass per 3 tons of equipment up to 200% vehicle mass.
Traditional sling loading requires the unit to drastically reduce its speed in order to safely carry the sling while the advanced hoist has better safeties built in thus only slows the unit by up to 21.6 km/h.
Both ways are valid. One just uses technology advancements to increase flexibility.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 12-Aug-2013 00:16 Post subject: Re: Mu Ultralight Armoured Car |
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Personally I think we need a design android app 
Aside from that With 10 tons mentioned waaay earlier I was considering unmodified VTOLs carrying 50 % of their weight, which is a thing most militias could do without relegating to civilian transports or specialised vehicles with cables. The point of this design was originally maximal flexibility. Original contest rules mostly counted on Planetlifters to do the job and didn't consider external load, but I've pushed it one step further, hence the 7 ton limit I've set for the vehicle.
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