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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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 Posted: 28-Jul-2013 22:58 Post subject: Re: Dreadnought III |
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The problem with cost is that it may not show what unit will or will not be built, but it certainly can show which unit can be had for certain amount of resources. With cost set I can tell whether for my 'Mech I can have three tanks or six. Then there's battle value, which should measure whether when I try to pit two units against each other, one will come up as a victor more often than the other.
Cost per BV measure included in stat blocks then roughly shows how much bang you get for your buck. That's from gaming perspective. If the game was reality, than any military analyst could get you similar result just from from far more factors. For whatever we choose to invest in this with standard tanks we could achieve X and for superheavy we could achieve Y. Under most circumstances will X>Y. That's the ugly truth behind it. The superheavy tanks may be built, but mostly it will be because some politico will be impressed by size without really realizing that the increase of usefulness with size is not linear.
I'm not trying to say that fielding a superheavy tank on board with BVs matched won't be fun, just that when reality simulation prowls around the superheavy unit loses it's shine. It's not badwrongfun to design them, but trying to convince people that they are in regular use (or most experienced players to field them regularly) will be always questioned as their inefficiency is rather obvious.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jul-2013 00:32 Post subject: Re: Dreadnought III |
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| Karagin wrote: | MekWars is NOT Battletech. SO comparing that to the BT board game is not proof of improved ECM rules for the real game.
And I do understand how ECM works, its one thing they almost got right, limited range and needing to be in the path of the LOS of the other side but that LOS has to work with the range of the ECM unit or wise sit be hind the hill and snipe away all day every day.
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What? Your saying an electronic copy of the board game is not the board game despit using all of the same rules as the board game. I dunno that sounds pretty much like the board game to me.
AND because it uses the same rules as printed in TW, TM, TO, and SO then I am going to compare it to the board game. The only difference is that I can turn on all of the options and still complete a game in a couple hours because the client does all the rolling and checking.
Mekwars is merely a server client face application for Megamek. And as established above, Megamek is a computerized version of the board game so yes I can use it to establish effectiveness.
The ghost target optional rule for ECM gives a unit a chance of being harder to hit. I have seen this performed and used to great success in dozens of games. It is hit or miss, but no more so than MASC or UACs.
The double blind rules (heavily used in Megamek games because of the lack of need for record keeping) also have ECM effecting the opponents sensors whenever they attempt to spot you. Appropriate use of these systems in this setting can result in unexpected ambushes.
Both of these rules improve ECM and ghost target alone can make it worth 1 to 2 tons of space. Add in that Angle blocks everything a Guardian does plus ArtVFCS, Streaks, and C3Boosted its even more worth it. Streaks alone make Angle worth it in my opinion.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jul-2013 05:31 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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It is not the board game Vagabond, I don't sit down and play face to face, enjoy a story or two, have to deal with a ticked off opponent who can't seem to figure out that my lone heavy mech is bait, etc...the enjoy or hatred of the dice I ROLL failing me or not. The idea of the game is to have fun with other people, call me old fashion but MegMek or Mekwars etc...are not Battletech. And none of those are official so no you can use it to get anything.
And the ECM rules as written are still FUBAR.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jul-2013 12:40 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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I can accept your opinion on things that are opinions. However, I'm sorry but I cannot simply accept your argument that Megamek is not Battletech. All of your reasoning if applied to any other game would sound silly.
Ex. Calling an online chess program anything but chess.
Ex 2. Calling an online Go program in which you play a live opponent anything but Go.
Just because something has been digitized (officially or not) does not suddenly make it not that game anymore. If the digital version applies by all of the same rules as a physical copy then it is still that game. You may choose not to like it or prefer it because it lacks the comradery that you seek as it is your right, but it is simply not valid to say its not the same game and disregard it, especially in debates.
A board game are the rules and features that comprise it. A gaming session are the people and atmosphere.
As for the ECM rules, I cannot understand as to why you feel as such. They seem pretty straight forward to me for a game. Yet, you are entitled to feel that way and not use them beyond their basic level.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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| Posted: 29-Jul-2013 19:04 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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And I disagree with your reasoning on the MMOs being BT as in being a fully 100% version of the board game.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5617
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jul-2013 23:12 Post subject: Re: Dreadnought III |
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| Karagin wrote: | | And I disagree with your reasoning on the MMOs being BT as in being a fully 100% version of the board game. |
First, this word you keep using I don't think it means what you think it means. MMO. Massive Multiplayer Online. Megamek by definition of client design cannot be massive. Multiplayer online, yes. Massive, no.
You may disagree but that does not stop the fact that Megamek is a digital analog of Battletech. Yes, I have to give that MM is not a 100 percent clone of the board game because it does not have the optional rule of hidden unit firing from hiding during the movement phase and command detonated land mines because of their interrupting but hidden nature.
It fails to possess a couple of rules that are optional and hardly even used. Any other rules and mechanics it may or may not have are the direct result of them not yet being added. All of the core non-optional rules published in TW are in megamek. Wait, not all... it uses aero fighters on map-sheets rather than abstract aero map-sheet flyovers from the lower atmospheric map.
As I said, you can feel free to say you don't like MM for various reasons. But you simply cannot argue that it is not the battletech board game. It follows the rules as written and has even become the cause for many of the pieces of errata caused by lack of clarity. The client at this point is more likely to follow the rules better then most groups. It is digital battletech.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Jul-2013 05:21 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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And I disagree with your stance that MM is the board game via computer. So you can defend it all you like. MMO has become a catch all of games on line for group of that it has more then one player seen it used more then once on FB as well as other chat rooms talking about any game that has a group of players of two or more and the need to be on the Internet to play it to it's full potential. So while you and I can not agree on this let's let it go and move on. Suggest making a section here on the boards to talk about MegMek and the other variants of said COMPUTER game.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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